SS01 / EP03 – There’s a lot of misconception about what worship is in the church. Micah and Brent break down the philosophy of worship at Gospel City Church and how it is based on what God says about worship.
SS01 / EP03 – There’s a lot of misconception about what worship is in the church. Micah and Brent break down the philosophy of worship at Gospel City Church and how it is based on what God says about worship.
Micah Klutinoty: You’re listening to “For the City”, a podcast of Gospel City Church. My name is Micah Klutinoty.
Brent Thomas: And I’m Brent Thomas.
Micah: Today let’s talk about worship. Why do we worship and what are the distinctives that make us who we are?
Well hey Brent, how is it going today?
Brent: It’s going really good.
Micah: Last night I watched “The Jesus Music” documentary that has recently been put out. And I loved it. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Someone recommended it to me. I was a little skeptical what it would be, but it was super nostalgic, all the old CCM bands that I grew up on, 80’s bands, DC Talk, all the things.
Brent: How many DC Talk songs do you have memorized?
Micah: Probably so many. Yeah, they’re awesome. We owe our congregation a rendition of “Jesus Freak” at some point.
Brent: I think we do. I remember just a couple of weeks ago you referenced it in a message. And several people came up to you and said, “I was waiting for you to just jump in and start singing in and you didn't.” So give the people what they want.
Micah: Ok, so the thing about “Jesus Freak” is the term kind of came out of the Jesus movement or the Jesus people. And what struck me in this documentary was the music that came out of the Jesus movement was largely just the music of the day with Jesus-centered lyrics. And so it was very like adoring of Jesus, very worshipful. And then CCM kind of came out and it grew and it sort of became this commodity and it became more about the show and the business side of things.
And then in even more recent years, you see kind of a resurgence of Jesus music in the worship movement. And our churches are now kind of full of lots of songs. There is no shortage of worship songs coming out. And that leads us into a great conversation for today because we’re going to talk about worship. What is worship and what’s the heart of worship? What’s our philosophy of worship as pastors at a church? And why is worship such a big deal?
So you’re the worship pastor at Gospel City Church. Talk about how you got into that role and why you’re passionate about worship, why the Lord…How’d you get where you are today?
Brent: Yeah for sure. Worship is a huge part of my life. And when we say worship I think it’s good to clarify, you know, we’re talking out the portion of services that are designated to singing, but sometimes things like taking Communion, reading Scripture, prayers, like intentional focus time on adoring Jesus Christ, giving glory to Jesus Christ and helping other people do the same thing.
Micah: Definitely more than a song.
Brent: Yeah.
Micah: Definitely not music. Largely we think of it that way.
Brent: Largely we think of like the time where we sing the songs. And while songs and music are a huge part of my life, but worship ministry and worship time in church services deeply impacted me from being a little kid opening up hymnals to in high school playing in bands and trying to have like a Christian focus to those bands and all that.
So, you know, you think of your life as giving praise to God and worship being a lifestyle. Music was a huge part of that. And so going into high school I was a worship leader for different aspects of things. Whether it was chapel band at my school or for summer camps that I’d play at and things like that.
And then at nineteen years old I realized that I didn’t fully believe the gospel. I gave my life to Christ, I was baptized, and then I kind of said, “Ok Lord, whatever You want to do with me.” And I started to pursue ministry as it relates to worship and, you know, worship leader full time for a church.
And the first real opportunity I had of that was as an interim worship leader over the summer for a church that was in between worship leaders, and I stepped into that role. And my sole responsibility was to help the congregation worship on a Sunday morning gathering. And that was an awesome thing. I learned a lot in that season. But I also started to understand that this is way more than picking three to five songs, strumming my guitar and calling it good. There was so much that went into, and there was a heart behind it that I didn’t fully understand.
And so from there it was a progression of different opportunities and, you know, being a part of a church plant and being the worship leader. And then eventually being installed as a worship pastor. And it had removed itself by that point so far from music and it was so much more about the heart of people and God’s glory that it’s been an awesome progression of developing that.
But that’s kind of my journey with it, but to say it hasn’t had an impact on my life it would be so far from the truth, that worship has deeply impacted who I am as both just a person who is existing, but also as a believer and follower of Christ and the way I view what’s going on and how that relates to what we’re doing here on earth.
Micah: I mean all of it gets down on a soul level. We were created to worship. The chief end of man is to glorify God, to have a relationship with God, to worship God. And all of that can be done through Christ.
My story is kind of like yours. Music was a big deal in my family and grew up in a worshiping household. My dad would play guitar and lead our family in worship. And eventually music for me and my siblings like we picked it up and it was a big thing.
But I remember going to a church, a conference, in high school my senior year and seeing people shepherd a Body of believers through music. And I remember being so impacted by that. Kind of like, Woah, that’s a thing? Like that’s a real job? You can do that? And just ministered to in my own soul.
And I remember John 4:23-24 being just a massive impact on my shoulders that weekend. And that of course says, But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. For the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
And I remember the Lord just impressing on my heart, “Micah, you’ve got to take creativity and music and songwriting and all those passions. Put them in the backseat and get a heart for my people. Get a heart for the local church.”
And if God is scouring the earth for a certain kind of worshiper, then man, we need people to rise up in the church who are passionate and contagious in their understanding and in their belief of what giving worship to the God of glory actually looks like. And that sent me on a trajectory to, you know. I went to Liberty University for worship music or worship pastoring and ended up at Gospel City Church where I was the worship pastor for thirteen years and now I’m preaching a lot more than singing. But all of it is worship. All of it is getting our eyes off of ourselves and onto Jesus Christ.
One of the things that has made me just love our church so much is the philosophy of worship that we have. Kind of always been a pillar of our church that we’ll be unashamed in our adoration of Jesus, that every time we gather we’re going to lift our eyes to see Jesus Christ as King.
How do you view that philosophy and the importance of that? How is that the most important thing that we do every time we gather?
Brent: Absolutely. It’s a journey. And you think about what we’re doing on a weekend without God’s presence being the main focus, it is the silliest thing in the entire world to gather a room full of adults, grown men and women, and have them clap their hands and sing along to songs with words on a screen. Like you remove God from that equation and like that’s so dumb. And so without the target being Jesus Christ and His adoration and lifting our eyes like you said and getting our eyes up off of the things around us and up on to God, it would be a huge waste of time.
And so viewing it as a journey I think is really helpful. The way I kind of approach a weekend service because people are coming in, and not only are they…There are two different services in our church. So you’ve got a 9:00 AM service and 11:00 AM service. Like those are two different groups of people because it’s just different times of the day. And then you start to break down the demographics of people, seasons of life, age, gender, race and so many different backgrounds and we're trying to take them all to the exact same spot.
So there has to be a kind of progression and like an intentional journey that we take people on each weekend, or it’s going to be hit or miss. Some Sundays it would be like, “Oh that was awesome,” and not know why. And you’ll just be pulling your hair out.
Micah: It’s so much more than just singing like top ten songs.
Brent: For sure.
Micah: Or your favorite song or this person’s favorite song, which it often becomes in the church.
Brent: It’d be so easy just to go to, you know, CCLI’s like a worship site that you could type in and it lists like these are the songs most sung in churches. And so you just every week you’re picking the first five songs that pop up. And, you know, that would be a way to do it and you might actually find like some people sing along.
The overall intentionality that we put in a weekend has led me throughout my life and I believe it leads our people. The purpose is to take them from the front door and inviting them into this journey. Let’s gather. Let’s do this. Let’s ascend the hill of the Lord together. And the spot we want to end every single week is in the throne room at the feet of Jesus. Like it’s not about us. It’s not about our circumstances or situations, but just, “God, You are worthy and holy.”
And that journey is an awesome thing and it’s never redundant. I’ve never like left a weekend sermon going, “Oh man, we’ve been there before.” Every time I get to the throne room, it’s just as awesome as the last time I was in the throne room. I believe that’s biblical because there are angels singing the exact same song every single day and they haven’t grown tired of it.
Micah: And the reason like we’re both so passionate about that journey and our people, you know, who come on a regular basis to church, they may not know like the philosophy or the system of that journey. But you see the results of a Body of people who are getting to the feet of Jesus and they’re no longer staring at their problems or their pain or their circumstances.
But when they’re staring into the face of Jesus, they start to become like what they worship. And that is why worship is so important. When we give our highest worth to the God of glory, we actually become like the God of glory who has saved us and put His Spirit in us. And then we are taking part in the chief end of man as we glorify God.
We often kind of number our songs. You can maybe talk about that a little bit. In gathering songs and testimony songs. And we’ve sort of talked about gospel songs being an important thing, like just having the clarity of the gospel, declaring the gospel. And then we have vertical songs.
So I like to think of it like we’re always trying, this journey is so much more than songs. Sometimes it’s Scripture readings like you said or communion or baptism or testimony. But we're always walking a progression that helps people get the attitude of access. Like I come in the door and maybe I just had a fight with my spouse or I had a hard time getting to church or my car needed jumped and I’m in a really bad mood and I don’t feel like singing an exciting song.
Brent: Yeah right.
Micah: We’re helping people get the attitude of access. I’ve just got to get my heart right and be invited into this thing. And then very shortly you need some submission and surrender to take place. Like who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? Those with clean hands and a pure heart.
So what we’re doing in worship should help people realize that they are unclean. We should be like Isaiah when we get in the throneroom of God, when we get in the presence of God we say, “Woe is me,” because we recognize our sin. And then we need to lay it down.
So sometimes the songs or the progression help us do that. But that’s not the end game of our worship. We soon wash people with the Word. So we’re singing Scripture, singing songs that are deep rooted in doctrine and rooted in the truths of God’s Word. We soon wash people with the Word. So we’re singing Scripture, songs that are deep rooted in doctrine and rooted in the truths of God’s Word. Maybe we're just reading God’s Word. Maybe we're praying God’s Word.
And then very shortly after that we’re proclaiming the glory of the gospel, because it’s the gospel that gives us access to the Holy of Holies. I would go even further to say that’s not even the end game of our worship. Like you said, we’ve got to get to the top of the hill. We’ve got to get to the feet of Jesus. We’ve got to get to the pinnacle of praise.
And so once you’ve got the attitude and once you’ve surrendered and once you’ve been washed with the Word and once you’ve proclaimed the glory of the gospel, you’re no longer singing songs about yourself. You’re not singing songs about your problems. You’re not even singing about your need for God. You’re just looking at God, staring in awe and at His majesty and you’re saying to Him all that He is, all that the angels are saying. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was and who is and who is to come.
And man, when you see that unfold in a congregation, it’s just explosive. It’s like you didn’t manufacture that. The presence of God does that because there is truth on display and our spirits are ignited to worship Him. And that’s so important.
Brent: Yeah, the journey is an awesome thing to watch in the room because you’re watching people do everything that you just said, especially when it comes to like the submission and the surrender. Like someone’s posture of worship could be vastly different, but they’re both in the exact same place.
And so you think about a guy, you know, who’s coming in, he just worked sixty hours that week and his boss chewed him out on Friday. And he tried to take a family day on Saturday and get some house projects done. And then he’s coming in on a Sunday morning and all he wants to do is be a good husband, be a good father and grow in his relationship with the Lord, but it’s at maybe an infant stage. Maybe he’s recently saved.
And then you have, you know, maybe an older saint lady who’s grown up in the church and she’s just fired up about what God is doing in her life and has so much testimony. And you can be in a moment of worship and they’re both at that place of worship and surrender of varying degrees. And so those are just like, you know, the two first examples that come to my mind. But think about how many people in the room are experiencing that. And it’s the Lord meeting them exactly where they’re at as an individual while they’re being inspired and encouraged by the corporate. Right?
And so that guy looks over and sees that lady and he’s encouraged by her faith. And the lady looks over and sees the guy and is encouraged that he is growing in stature with the Lord. It's a beautiful thing to watch and witness.
But I think like what I want for people is to not hit the plateau. I was talking with a friend like you view a mountain climbing analogy with this whole journey of trying to get to the top, and the summit is the end goal. And nobody who like starts off on a journey says, “I’d be content with just the plateau.” Because the plateau is actually a really great spot to see some stuff. It’s not a bad place.
But we often view plateauing as a bad term. But in mountain climbing it’s not a spot to get to. It’s kind of safe there, and you know, you’re stable. But the hardest part of the climb and the most dangerous part of the climb is from the plateau to the summit. And so when people get to that point of submission and surrender to actually lay it down enough to get to the top and view who Jesus really is requires sacrifice, requires them to say, “It’s not about me anymore.” And we're really bad at that.
And so to lead people on that journey every weekend is a tough thing because most people don’t want to make the hard climb. And so sometimes it can feel frustrating as a pastor to stand there and say, “I’ve put all this energy and design into getting you to this certain place, but you don’t want to go there.” And so I’m like dragging you along when in reality it’s recognizing that our sinful desires and the pride of life and all the things of the world would rather keep us away from that at all costs.
Satan is at work to distract and accuse and all of these things and he doesn’t like what's happening in that room. But if we call people to it and invite them to it then the Holy Spirit does the rest.
And so it’s not, like you said, manufacturing something which seems so much more intense and like would be a crushing load. But when you step in and you say, you know, “Spirit move, Spirit work,” and you’re just watching God do what He does with His children, you kind of just open your hands and you say, “This is true worship.”
Micah: Yeah. And that’s why the truth aspect is so important, you know, that God is looking for worshippers of Spirit and truth. When it’s lacking truth, we feel the pressure to manufacture something. And when it’s lacking truth, I as a worship leader feel like I have to drag people into a place that I can’t take them. Only the Spirit can do it.
And so it’s really reassuring for a worship pastor or any pastor or any believer that man, I get to meet with the God of glory as much as I’m willing to sacrifice, as much as I’m willing to open up my hands, as much as I’m willing to bring my sinfulness into the light and allow the Spirit of God to deal with me. And when I do that, I won’t meet a God of condemnation. I will meet a God of love and grace and mercy, and it will make me want to worship Him all the more.
And so how would you encourage anyone listening who maybe feels like, I just do feel like I hit a plateau in my worship or I do feel stagnant in my worship. Or I do feel like I could give more and want to give more or want to meet with the Lord in a fresh way and a new way? What would your exhortment to them be right now?
Brent: For sure. I mean, there’s got to be an open heart and an open mind to come in, like you’re coming to church or you're coming to a gathering expectant that you want to meet with the Lord. He says, “If you seek me you will find me if you seek me with all your heart.”
And so the Lord is not distant from us. The problem is us always. And so He’s near to the brokenhearted. He saves the crushed in spirit. And so no matter your circumstances of your life, when you ask God to reveal Himself and you ask God to be near, He’s ready and willing to do that. And it’s 100% of the time it’s us that gets in the way of that. And so if there’s a plateau, stagnation in your worship, then it’s usually a pause and an asking of the Lord to remove that. And maybe there's things that you don’t even recognize.
And I’ll say to people a lot, “Maybe you don’t know the song or maybe you don’t want to sing the lyrics that are currently in front of you because you’re like, ‘I don’t believe that they’re true,’ you can sit and pray these words and ask God, ‘God I want You to show me that this is true in my life.’” And I’ve watched God do that for people when they take the time to ask God to actually show up in the room.
So I think it’s a posture of saying, "I'm not coming like, “God, You’d better prove Yourself to me again today,” but rather a humility and asking God to show Himself. And He’s ready and willing to do it.
Micah: I love a definition of worship. I think it’s maybe David Platt. But that worship is rhythm of revelation and response.
Brent: That’s good.
Micah: Or I think it goes great with Psalm 34. O taste and see that the Lord is good. God is always good and God is always revealing Himself. The problem is I’m not always tasting and seeing. I’m not always responding to what God is revealing. And so like you said, the problem is not with God. it’s always with us.
And so where we feel stagnant, where we feel like we need to get over the hump, that’s just the world letting us know that we’re finite and our humanness calling us back to repentance so that we might see the Lord in all of His beauty, in all of His splendor, in all of His glory and the ultimate way that He’s given us to do that is through His Word.
And the Spirit of God wants to help us with that. The Spirit of God wants to reveal more of Christ and His beauty to us. And so we have to continually submit ourselves to the Lord, call upon Him. 1 Chronicles says seek the Lord while He may be found. It’s not too late.
Now is the time to seek the Lord in His beauty, in His strength. And as you said, seek Him and you will find and He will reveal Himself. And often it’s in the low points of life. Often it’s in our suffering. Often it’s in those stagnant moments that we come to see Christ is all that we need, Christ is enough, and we can open ourselves up to experience His blessing, His joy and worship Him in the kind of abundance that He created us to do.
Man, great conversion man.
Brent: Yeah, it’s really good. I think it’d be cool to spend some time on another episode for us to talk about the vehicles of worship and the ways we can use things like the music and the creativity and the atmospheres, environments of our gatherings to complement everything we just talked about. Because the heart of worship does not reside in the things we put our hands to. The heart of worship resides in, what you said, our response to who God is revealing HImself to be.
And so in that response it can look a lot of different ways. And so it would be kind of fun for us to unpack that and specifically what it looks like here but also things we’ve seen that are impactful and how the world is using them in 2022.
Micah: Absolutely. Because there’s a lot of worship wars around things that are temporal and things that don’t matter and things that do distract us. And ultimately worship is about the heart. And so I think you're right. That’s a great conversation that we can have. Let’s have it next time.
Brent: Sounds good.
Thanks for listening to “For the City,” a podcast of Gospel City Church. To find out more, visit mygospelcity.org. If you found this episode helpful, we’d love for you to leave us a rating and subscribe. Also, take a moment to share it with some of your friends. We’ll see you next time.